This forum on VATSIM we find to be very interesting.
http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51102
It discusses how information that VATSIM keeps should be made available to certain people, and it is started by
I feel that VATSIM should allow us as members of their network access to any information that has been recorded, including notes on our files about suspensions, warnings and any other information collected about individual users.
I want to know what information has been recorded about me, what supervisors have written in my notes, I feel that I should have the right to access my information freely, rather than this information being only made to select supervisors and admins.
Any one else, whats your thoughts.”"
This is the replies that were given by David Klain…
“Of course Luke’s quote has to do with government and not a private organization. People have the right to not submit to VATSIM’s “arbitrary measures” by not using this network and going somewhere else. As pointed out in an earlier post, the Freedom of Information Act does not apply to VATSIM. VATSIM keeps records for its own internal use and has chosen to only make some of them (connection history viewable on stats page) viewable…the remainder are kept for VATSIM’s internal use and no, at present the network has no intent to make them available to members.
People are welcome to use the services VATSIM provides, but that doesn’t give a user of the network any “right” to view VATSIM records.”
And….
“It’s not an issue of “common decency” (to use your words). VATSIM keeps records on a number of things. Some of them it has chosen to make available for convenience/use of the membership. Those items are available via the stats server. Others VATSIM has chosen NOT to make available. There are a number of reasons why this information is not shared and kept internal to VATSIM. Some of this is done for security reasons. Some of it is done to keep others who would compete with VATSIM from using our information against us. Some of this is done to protect the network from those who would disrupt it. Some of this is for other reasons. Bottom line is that VATSIM chooses to make keep some of its INTERNAL data private and internal.
As I stated in my earlier post, VATSIM is a private organization that provides a service. People who create accounts on VATSIM are USERS of that service. The choice to use (or not use) the service is up to the individual. If he/she finds the fact VATSIM does not share its internal data onerous, he/she can choose to go elsewhere.
This may satisfy you, it may not, but these are the conditions under which VATSIM chooses to operate. End of story.”
The original writer actually has an excellent point, although in fairness so do some of the writers on this forum about the cons of releasing the information. However there is only one problem with the whole thing. VATSIM keeps secrets! As most people know, secrets are usually kept secret because they are bad. The most probable truth behind David Klain’s claims are that there are many cases where VATSIM members are slandered behind their backs and crap is told about them where hunreds of VATSIM administrators and Supersvisors have access to it, but they cannot see it.
That is the exact reason more importantly that they keep the information secret. They don’t want people to see who wrote down what about them because it could possibly open the door to slander law suits by members, which would ultimately be legitamite if it got out that someone said something false about someone, which is usually the reason for secret information. Since most of the poeple committing this would be the owners of VATSIM, if these lawsuits were to occur to the writers of this slanderous information the VATSIM network could cease to exist The fact that David Klain says that one of the reasons is that they don’t want people using the information against VATSIM should be a pretty good clue to everyone about the liabilities of what is in there that these records can cause VATSIM staff, supersvisors and owners. Ofcourse they need to cover their asses at their members expense.
So ofcourse the owners of VATSIM have to feel comfortable to say anything they want about anyone without any reprocautions at the expense of their members. Even if VATSIM would open up your records to be seen you could never know that there was then another secret CERT record location that they kept the things that you did not want to see, so it’s really a dead end. You just simply could not prove and they could not disprove that they were secretely harvesting slander against their members, but could be another reason that they do not allow it. This way they can write anything they want about you, and you cannot do anything about it because you can’t prove it. All of a sudden you will just notice one day that Supervisors have it out for you and or are giving you the cold shoulder. That would be a clue though that someone has written crap about you. But the bottom line is that you just cannot trust these people because you really don’t know what they say about you.
If you want to be sure that VATSIM is not writing crap about you behind your back then you have 2 options. Either join using a fake name, as they will never find this out anyways, or just join another network that does not screw around with their members like they do.
This is regarding the following topic in the VATSIM Forum:
http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=48569&p=355277
Sean Harrison Wrote:
Didn’t know about Simmiles. Is the whole group black listed, as I was recently asked to join a simmiles based group. I wasn’t going to join, but are all their VA’s closed?
“Yeah you fuckin moron, eveyrone got scared and packed their bags like a little fuckin punk like you are”
Ernesto Alvarez writes:
you know the routine. kid gets terminated from group, kid feels he must have revenge, kid finds himself a hacker group, kid attempts to hack, site gets taken out by kid and his buddies
sad, but true. wouldnt doubt if it was different.
just to throw this one out there, simmiles is at it again
http://www.flyingtigersgroup.net <—– fake website hosted by simmiles
Not as fake as the flying you do. At least some people know how to make a good Virtual Airline. Flying Tigers Group is a World War II fighter wing. Maybe one of their descendents wanted to put up a website to remember these guys for the good job they did back then. These are not fake people at all, infact that organization is using their name and not the other way around. Just shows you what you fuckin know. Absolutely nothing. You should mind your own fuckin business if you can handle that and knew what was good for you.
Ernesto Alvarez wrote:
Yeah its in the list here http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46526
And im not sure what they are trying to achieve by running a group named after FTG
“It’s none of your fuckin business. Go back and fly on VATSIM, you don’t know anything about anything else.”
Romano Lara writes:
This is just pathetic (completely), given that their founder is a VATSIM member and also an Instructor..
“What’s pathetic is that you don’t have a life outside of VATSIM. You should stick another carrot up your ass one seems to not be enough.”
Kirk Cristie writes:
Yes i have heard of a few instances where they have completely copied another VA’s data for their own use.
“Yet you cannot name or show one. You just want to be on the bandwagon with these losers but you don’t know what you are talking about.”
David Klain writes:
When you post something with “the facts” (your term) norms of journalism would indicate you make an attempt to get BOTH sides of the story. In your case you spoke to simmiles but did not bother to get VATSIM’s version of the events by contacting Richard Jenkins, George Marinakis (VATSIM’s attorney) or me (VATSIM’s President). At best, your piece is one-sided. I can assure you that what you are describing as “facts” simply aren’t — they are falsehoods. The good news is that VATSIM has already taken the appropriate action (both legal and on the network) it deemed necessary. As you say, you are entitled to say what you want on your blog…but you are NOT entitled to say anything you want in these forums (per the user agreement you agreed to when you joined VATSIM) and certainly we will not permit our forums to drive traffic to a website (yours) filled with falsehoods and mis-representations about a situation VATSIM views as grave, in violation of VATSIM policies and the laws of the United States of America (where VATSIM is incorporated).
“VATSIM promised it’s members that the Hit Squad will go to Kenya, but then that never happened. VATSIM also promised all of it’s members that that Pilot Rating system would be out the first quarter of last year, also never happened. So you are absolutely right Dave, nobody should spread falsehoods around the VATSIM Forum because VATSIM already takes care of that departement.
The rest of us all know that only you and your VATSIM fork friends are allowed to do anything they want to in the VATSIM Forum, even if it goes against the Code of Conduct, which is ofcourse another falsehood. There is absolutely no point in contacting any of you as none of you reply to anything because you think that you are too important. Furthermore your position regarding the matter has already been articulated pretty well with your rhetoric.”
This is a sample of a Cease and Desist that these mother fuckers send to people. If anybody wants to use this against VATSIM in any legal way then you have our thanks in advance.
================================================================================
Dear [NAME REMOVED], et al.,:
My name is George S. Marinakis and I am an attorney with the law firm of Marinakis & Marinakis in Cincinnati, Ohio, United States of America. My firm has been asked to contact each of you by the Founders of VATSIM, the owners of the Virtual Air Traffic Simulation Network which is an organization founded to provide the worldwide flight simulation community with structured air traffic control services and flight simulation over a global computer communications network.
You are currently operating the following internet websites which prominently feature the name “VATSIM” in the domain name of the site and throughout numerous pages of these sites:
[ALL OTHER DOMAINS REMOVED]
In addition you are utilizing a logo at the top of the page which is virtually identical to the copyrighted VATSIM logo which belongs to my clients.
We have carefully examined each of these websites and have determined that you are infringing upon VATSIM’s copyrights by utilizing the VATSIM name as well as its logo without permission. In addition, we have determined that you are utilizing this copyrighted material as well as the principle VATSIM name along with the names of its various regions, divisions and subdivisions in an attempt to drive people who are interested in VATSIM to your website in an attempt to sell some type of forum hosting. You have also used the VATSIM name and have created these sites in such a manner so as to confuse the general public into thinking that your sites are created by and/or approved by VATSIM and even attempt to fraudulently obtain VATSIM members’ IDs and passwords by harvesting them on your site(s).
We are providing you with this opportunity to cease and desist each of these activities for all of the above listed websites as well as any others you may own and/or operate which infringe in any manner on the VATSIM name and/or its copyrighted material(s) within the next forty-eight (48) hours. In return, my clients will forgo the pursuit of damages, injunctions and other remedies provided under law, both internationally as well as domestic, against each of you individually and severally.
You are to immediately remove all references to the name “VATSIM” in the domain name of any sites you own or control. You are to cease and desist the unauthorized use of the name “VATSIM”, “Virtual Air Traffic Simulation Network” and any other names which sound similar to those copyrighted by my clients which the general public might confuse with the VATSIM network on any and all websites you publish. You are to cease and desist the continued unauthorized use of the names of any of VATSIM’s regions, divisions and subdivisions. Finally, you are to cease and desist the unauthorized use of VATSIM’s copyrighted logo as well as any and all other activities which have infringed upon VATSIM’s copyrights as described above.
Should you fail to cease and desist, we will not hesitate to pursue all available legal remedies, jointly and severally, against each of the following individuals who are listed as being “Executive Staff” of “[NAME REMOVED]” on the vatsimforum.com website:
[NAMES REMOVED]
In addition to the above listed individuals, we will also pursue any other individuals and/or corporate or other entities which are subsequently discovered to have similarly engaged in the infringement of my clients’ copyrights. If any of the above listed individuals are determined to be under the age of majority in their country of residence, we will pursue our claims against the legal guardians of such individuals.
While [NAME REMOVED]’s VATSIM registration information appears to list his country of residence as Canada and some of the other listed “Executive Staff” appear to live in Australia, should a contact within the United States be discovered, we would seek all available statutory damages as well as attorneys fees for any willful infringement of my clients’ copyrights which have been committed. Rest assured, however, that the physical location of anyone infringing upon VATSIM’s copyrights is of no matter. My clients will protect their copyrights by pursuing you in Canada, Australia or any other country of residence if you continue your activities.
This will be your first and only chance to comply with our demands.
–
George S. Marinakis
Marinakis & Marinakis
Attorneys at Law
605 Sycamore Street
Cincinnati, Ohio 45202
Tel.: (513) 684-9393
Fax.: (513) 684-9752
================================================================================
Not only did VATSIM ban all of the many people that this letter was sent out to that was named on this website, these idiots nailed all of the wrong people! In other words they banned people from VATSIM that were completely innocent of any wrong doing. The actual people that operate this website were never identified by VATSIM because they are a bunch of morons that couldn’t know how to put together and prosecute a case if it was handed to them and all they had to do was point out Big Bird in a lineup.
Their claim has absolutely no legal bases, the only only purpose of this entire letter was to intimidate and bully around which is their specialty and they even suck at doing that! What VATSIM owners and staff say cannot be taken at face value.
VATSIM Forum: http://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46526
“”It has come to our attention there are a few websites out there that have wording that could be interpreted as being official VATSIM sites. They ask for ID’s and passwords to login:
DO NOT USE YOUR VATSIM ID AND PASSWORD
These domains have nothing to do with VATSIM:
*vatsim.biz
*vatsimforum.com
*simmiles.com
*vatsimatc.com
We’ll be speaking with the owner(s) of these sites shortly.
Richard Jenkins
VATSIM Founder”"
=> If they have nothing to do with VATSIM then why do you care about what they are doing Richard? What are you going to talk to the owner(s) about. That you don’t like it? That’s too bad, nothing you can do about it. It is against VATSIM policy to give out your VATSIM ID and Password anywhere anyways unless connecting to a site or software approved by VATSIM.
“”I say VATSIM should offer a VA web site hosting service, use the money to fund servers, and offer a discount to any simmiles hosting customer that migrates over.
_________________
Senior Controller, Boston ARTCC
Protégé to Sisyphus
Developer: VRC, VAT-Spy“”
What exactly is the point of those websites?
It looks almost auto-generated contents, based on some sort of data mining process.”"
=> Have you seen the VATSIM website Ivan?
“” Richard Jenkins
=> We checked, IVAO is not friends with you, they actually hate you.
“”Wow….lots of misinformation being thrown about this thread.
Since it’s starting to get personal, it’s time to pull the plug. Thanks for playing!
George S. Marinakis
VATSIM6, co-Founder, VATSIM”"
=> Yes there is alot of mis-information for sure, all of it started by VATSIM staff. Yes it is starting to get personal for the VATSIM staff that initiated this thred. But you must all cover each other’s butts, that’s how this works. We get it, you don’t want to reveal to people all of your dishonesty and bad deeds.
The VATSIM Forum has anot of information about online flying, virtual airlines and flight simulator in general. The VATSIM Forum also provides tutorials for communicating with ATC Air Traffic Control simulation online. The VATSIM Forum has forums that are dedicated for information about ARTCCs, FSX, Charts, Maps, FS2004, Teamspeak, online flights, VFR, IFR, airlines, data, voice, and tutorials on how to connect to the VATSIM server.
In order to use the VATSIM Forum you must have a valid and current VATSIM ID and then once you have this VATSIM ID you can login to the VATSIM Forum. The VATSIM Forum also has seperate forums for most Division and Regions on the VATSIM Network such as VATEIR, VATIL, VATAME, VATME, VATCAF, VATNAF, VATSAF, VATEUD, VATRUS, VATCA, VATCAN, VATNA, VATUSA, VATSA, VATCAR, VATMEX, VATJPN, VATOCE, VATNZ, VATPAC, VATIND and VATASIA.
If you are joining the VATSIM Forum for the first time you will find information about how to download software that you need to do flights using FSX and FS2004 online. There are plenty of resources on the VATSIM Forum for online flying tools such as charts, tutorials and server data. There is enough information there for new members on how to use the VATSIM Network for online flying and the VATSIM Forum. The VATSIM Forum can also be used to make announcements for virtual airlines, tutorials, information, routes, charts and teamspeak servers.
When you first join the VATSIM online flying network you will be able to choose a region to belong to and a division within that region. The list of regions and divisions on VATSIM is as follows: VATEIR, VATIL, VATAME, VATME, VATCAF, VATNAF, VATSAF, VATEUD, VATRUS, VATCA, VATCAN, VATNA, VATUSA, VATSA, VATCAR, VATMEX, VATJPN, VATOCE, VATNZ, VATPAC, VATIND and VATASIA. When you go into the VATSIM forum you will be able to make posts in the forum in VATSIM that corresponds to the Division and Region that you belong to on VATSIM. The VATSIM Forum should be checked often for updated information as people often post information about the VATSIM servers, online flying, virtual airline news, new and updated charts, new teamspeak servers, voice channels, and general online flying data for use on VATSIM.
The VATSIM Forum is also used by VATSIM staff to make important annoncements regarding online flying, server changes, new downloads, tutorials that they recommend and changed to any rules and regulations on the VATSIM Network. Most of the Divisions including VATEIR, VATIL, VATAME, VATME, VATCAF, VATNAF, VATSAF, VATEUD, VATRUS, VATCA, VATCAN, VATNA, VATUSA, VATSA, VATCAR, VATMEX, VATJPN, VATOCE, VATNZ, VATPAC, VATIND and VATASIA have their on ARTCCs. These ARTCCs are seperated within these Divisions but do not have their own sections within the VATSIM Forum. Once you join a Division on VATSIM you can join a vACC or ARTCC that you want to belong to and start your flying and controlling online.
Alot of VATSIM members place their VATSIM Indicators in the VATSIM forum as visible banners. These VATSIM Indicators in the VATSIM forum usually indicate the virtual airline or community that these VATSIM Members belong to. The VATSIM Forum remains an excellent source for finding out the must up to date information but also is used for making advertisements about your ARTCC, vACC, Virtual Airline, Teamspeak server and tutorials that you recommend. The VATSIM Forum is moderated by VATSIM staff at all times and therefor the rules of the VATSIM network and the VATSIM Forum should be followed at all time while participating in discussions on the VATSIM Forum.
The VATSIM Forum is also used for VATSIM member discussions about charts, IFR procedures, VFR procedures, teamspeak server rules, local virtual airlines, how to connect to the VATSIM network and how to login to the VATSIM Network. Local procedures in VATSIM Divisions and local vACCs and ARTCCs are also discussed in the VATSIM Forum. As a VATSIM member with a valid VATSIM ID you can login to the VATSIM Forum to participate in these discussions online along with other VATSIM members that are also using the VATSIM Forum. In order to use the VATSIM Network though you must have a copy of FSX or FS2004 but to control on the VATSIM network online you do not need to have FSX or FS2004. If you are interested in controlling on the VATSIM network as ATC then there are sector files that you need to download. Some of these most up to date sector files are are also available to be downloaded in the VATSIM Forum. So make use the VATSIM forum as it is an invaluable resource online for VATSIM members.